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Re:TRADE UNIONS AND PROCEDURES 1 Month, 3 Weeks ago
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Karma: 0
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Thanks for this. It was the regional officer who has pulled out despite telling me that she wanted to see this through as my treatment has been appalling.It has made me question the whole issue of whether it is ever worth complaining.
My union rep has now told me that the senior manager who was responsible for my breakdown will be the person who will be presenting management's case regarding the discplinary. I asked how can this be when there is a grievance against her. I explained that fairness has not been allowed her and all he could say was that they could do what they want. He now tells me that the Director will be putting management's case against my grievance appeal. He said that they have pulled out their big guns and warned that my dismissal would mean no salaries from that point. I get the feeling that he was trying to tell me that my case was doomed. I have asked him to write to the employer asking for the details of the alleagations. His response was that I attended meetings therefore I should know. I explained again that the last meeting was in May and I am still waiting for the transcript of that meeting. As no-one was available to attend with me I had to go on my own I am not sure that I was able to take all the relevant minutes. The meeting was recorded therefore I would be able to go through the points that they were raising. I raised with him that I was moved from my workplace for 12 weeks to allow my grievance complaint to be investigated yet 18 months later I was still there with no explainations. I asked what's the point of having management /union agreements/policies when no one sticks to them but the employee is punished and no one protects them. My concern is that a grievance which began two and a half years ago has been allowed to turn into something else. I am now worried that I may be dismissed for raising a grievance. He did not even ask me if there were any witnesses that could support me. I asked him for all the letters between him amd management and all he handed me was a letter dated 3 weeks ago giving the date for the hearing. No doubt he was in a hurry to let me know what was happenning.
Can you think of any reason why the discplinary is being heard prior to the grievance appeal. Do you know what i should be expecting from my union?
I am sorry for taking up so much of your time but i am really worried.
Many thanks.
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Re:TRADE UNIONS AND PROCEDURES 1 Month, 3 Weeks ago
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Karma: 5
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Hi Anthony
You really are having a rough time of things and your union doesn't appear to be doing it's job either, though if you have failed to pay the subscriptions you have effectively allowed your membership to lapse and they are not obliged to assist you. However, this being the case why have they agreed to represent you at your disciplinary?
Your union rep is correct in saying that your employers are not obliged to follow ACAS Codes of Practice. Should your case come before an Employment Tribunal, failure to follow ACAS CoPs will not be looked on favourably. This, however, does not help you at this point.
If you are currently facing a disciplinary hearing they must inform you of the charges against you. They should also provide in advance of your hearing any documentary evidence they intend to refer to during the hearing. They appear to have fulfilled their obligations in the first instance by informing you that the charges are:
Being verbally abusive to managers and colleagues.
Failure to attend a disciplinary hearing.
Whether or not they have heard your original grievance is not the issue at this point. The issue is whether or not you have been verbally abusive to managers and colleagues and whether you failed to attend a disciplinary hearing.
If you have been abusive they will need to outline the occasions on which you have been considered to have done so and to whom and this will be the mangements case. If you deny that you have been at any time verbally abusive then you need to state quite categorically that you have never at any time been verbally abusive to either management or colleagues.
The second charge is the question of whether you failed to attend a disciplinary hearing. If they are saying that you did then you should admit that this appears to be the case but explain that in mitigation you were not aware that such a hearing had been arranged and therefore could not be in a position to have attended. Ask them to provide evidence that they sent you a letter detailing the disciplinary offences you are accused of and the date, time and venue of the hearing.
If you have a union representative that has agreed to attend your hearing with you fine. If not, you are entitled to take in a trusted friend or colleague; usually a fellow employee but sometimes their procedures allow for a friend or relative from outside of their employment - you need to check this. It is important that you have someone with you if only someone to take notes. Make sure you inform them before the hearing who will be accompanying you.
At the start of the hearing the management should introduce everyone and explain the procedure. They should ask whether you understand the procedure before asking management to state their case against you. It is at this point that you need to explain that you object to the manager taking any part in the case against you as you have submitted a grievance against him/her that has not been heard or concluded and that s/he has a personal grudge against you for this reason. Ask them to ensure that this objection is duly noted in the notes of the proceedings. They may ignore your objections but as long as you have made them aware of it then you should continue. They are in the driving seat and whatever mistakes they make will be fully taken into account should the hearing result in your dismissal and you wish to lodge an unfair dismissal claim with an Employment Tribunal.
I usually prepare, as far as possible, a written bullet pointed statement of my members case in advance of the meeting. Occasionally, the management case may give rise to additions/changes to the statement but I try not to deviate too much from it since it ensures that all of the important relevant points I want to bring up are covered in a structured way. It may therefore be helpful if you prepare a written statement and read it to the Chair at the appropriate time. It will help you since you will not be used to speaking at such a formal hearing and if you are nervous it tends to keep you calm (as far as reasonably possibly) and stops you becoming tongue tied. It is also very helpful in that it restricts management questions and usually I have anticipated most of them and I can respond by re-iterating the passages from the statement, e.g "As I have said earlier [and then read the relevant points].
Good Luck and I hope that this is helpful.
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Re:TRADE UNIONS AND PROCEDURES 1 Month ago
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Karma: 0
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Update
Thank you all for your support.
I finally received details of the allegations last week. When I looked at them I did not know whether to laugh or cry. They are minor issues from 2005 and were incorrect anyway. The alleged missed meeting the Post office were able to confirm that they had not been asked to deliver a letter to my home with the reference number stated by my employers. The post office has confirmed this to me in writing. I guess that it leaves my employers with some questions to answer.
With regard to the other allegations, my difficulty has been trying to get support from my union rep. I have evidenced that management only brought these allegations because I lodged a grievance. Their policy states that I should not have suffered a detriment as result of raising complaint. This seemed beyond his understanding. I asked him to go through the employers statements with me and to assist me with preparing my case but he said that there is no point as he believed that my employers intend to dismiss me even though I have informed him that I have written evidence which seriously challenges their allegations. I explained to hime that their policy said that I should have been given enough information to respond to the allegations at the point of the discplinary investigatory meeting but that I am only just receiving them one week before a hearing. He has refused to look at my evidence stating that management have dates etc and if it is written down then it must be right. So do I but it did not seem to count. I thought that the union were there to support their members. I have never felt so low. I showed him that the management have not allowed procedural fairness but again he sighted a ruling where if my case went to tribunal I could not include procedural unfairness against my employers.
From my first meeting with him and before seeing management's statement he has been pushing me towards accepting a compromise agreement. I asked how can he be asking me to go for this when he has not seen the management's case as yet. Each time I challenge him his response is to state that he does not have to represent me. Anyway I made contact with potential witnesses who provided written statements for me and agreed to attend the hearing. To my horror my union rep made contact with them and told them that their evidence would not assist me and therefore there was no need for them to attend the hearing. In talking to potential witnesses I found out that two other colleagues had experienced the same treatment by management and were in the same union and the union applied the same tactics. They left their jobs and the union. Talk about being in managements pocket.
Give that he was not going to help me I asked if I could have a second opinion regarding my case. He refused to allow me to speak with the union's solicitor and suggested that I sought advice from he CAB. When I said that the CAB will not get involved if there is already union involvement he went very quiet. I did make contact with the union's solicitor and they would not speak to me.
Anyway, I thought that I had nothing to lose so I discussed the case with my old solicitor. She is very clear that I have a very strong case and feels that my union have not served me well. She asked me did I wish to continue to work for this Local Authority and for the first time I said NO and meant no. I realised that with my qualifications I could get another good job elsewhere. With advice from my solicitor I asked the union to seek a compromise agreement by the end of business on that particular day. In fact I gave him one-and-a half hours.He kept coming back with some silly amount but I made it clear that I would only consider a minimum of a year's salary and to remind my employers that time was running out. In the end I was asked to consider an amount which I am very satisfied with.
When I told my solicitor she could not believe the amount that I had negoiated for myself. She said that my employers must have been worried about their case and that it was worth buying my silence.
On balance I feel that I am walking away from a position of strength which is very satisfying and I am at peace. I can now take sometime out to look after myself before looking for another job.
The harsh lesson for me is to never complain about treatment from my manager unless I have good union and family support.
I admire the strength and courage that I see from some of the people on this website. It is frightenning that management are allowed to treat workers so appalling and it seems that the law allows them to get away with it as well. Our grievance policy states that you have to lodge a complaint within 3 months of the last incident yet the law is not specific with the employer. This has been the worse two and a half years of my life and it is wrong that my employers were allowed to mess about with my psychological and emotional health in this way.
I know that there are some excellent union reps out there but sadly for me this was no the case. By the way I contact the union's regional office but was told that my rep was one of their best!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
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Re:TRADE UNIONS AND PROCEDURES 1 Month ago
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Karma: 6
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Well done!! I'm so very pleased for you. I know that signing a compromised agreement doesn't mean that you're employers have accepted responsibility, but the way I see it is if they're prepared to pay you off, then that's a sign of guilt in itself.
I completely understand about how hard it is to come to terms with the fact that you don't want to work somewhere again. It's something that I've had to battle with, but you've clearly realised that you have the skills and talent to flourish elsewhere.
Congrats and good luck with the job search xx
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Re:TRADE UNIONS AND PROCEDURES 1 Month ago
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Karma: 13
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Well done Anthony !
I was almost crying when I read your latest update .
I am so delighted for you words cannot express.
You suffered horribly at the hands of serial incompetent fools and I include "one of the best union reps " in that.
Congratulations on making a stand and Im so happy about your successful negotiation.
Well done !!!
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Re:TRADE UNIONS AND PROCEDURES 1 Month ago
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Karma: 5
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This story just beggars belief. I have always been totally committed to trade unionism but I am beginning to wonder if there are too many union officials running with the hares and hunting with the hounds. Having read your posting I am ashamed to admit we may be part of the same union. If I was you I would ask for a copy of the unions complaints procedure (if I'm guessing correctly and you are a member of the union I think you are you will find a copy on their website). Take your complaint to the highest level and keep copies. Unfortunately, people fail to do this and it is a shameful that a few people like the cretin representing you, is discrediting a lot of hardworking and committed trade union reps who are out there working their socks off and making some amazing achievements. There is plenty more work for you yet Stephan Cross!
Does the Freedom of Information Act apply to unions as I would really love to know how many complaints are lodged in respect of poor service and even worse still, officials acting in a manner not in the best interest of the member.
I'm really pleased you have worked out a good deal for yourself and are moving on. May I be one of the first to wish you a fantastic new start and a much happier year in 2009.
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